Nicholas: Markus Manninen Online Interview
INTRODUCTION: Markus Manninen is one of the top effects talents at DreamWorks Animation today, having recently received attention for his work as visual effects supervisor on the Oscar-nominated Kung Fu Panda. His work on that film has also been recognized with a nomination from the Visual Effects Society (for Outstanding Effects Animation in an Animated Feature Motion Picture). Besides this, he also has worked in both animation and live action films as a digital effects artist.
Q: First, could you give us a list of your DreamWorks credits and briefly describe your role on each of these productions?
A: Before I came to DreamWorks Animation to work as Visual Effects Supervisor I was running the commercial computer graphics department at Framestore CFC in London and did work as a Director and CG Supervisor on projects. Before that I was a CG Supervisor at Filmtecknarna in Sweden, and before that I was self-employed/freelance animator and director.
My DreamWorks credits include:
- Kung Fu Panda [DreamWorks Animation] - Visual Effects Supervisor (release 2008)
- Kung Fu Panda Energizer (commercial) - Director (2008)
- Bee Movie [DreamWorks Animation] - Consultant (release 2007)
Over The Hedge [DreamWorks Animation] - CG Supervisor (release 2006)
I started in June 2003 at DreamWorks to do “Kung Fu Panda,” even though at the time the project hadn’t been identified. When I first arrived I went through the training and helped out on “Over the Hedge,” which was in pre-production. Mainly I supervised development and testing of the clothing pipeline, the procedural foliage system, and the procedural feather system. I also helped out on Bee Movie during early pre-production.
My main focus was obviously “Kung Fu Panda” which I started on part time in August 2003. As VFX Supervisor my role was to work for the directors and producers to make sure that we could deliver the film they wanted to make. My closest collaboration was with the Production Designer on the film. It was our job to strategize the best possible solutions for making the film “all it could be”. The two of us worked closely with Head of Story, Editor, Head of Character Animation, and Head of Layout. I had a large group of people as department heads that helped us make the film - Modeling Supervisor, Surfacing Supervisor, Head of Effects, Character Effects Supervisor, Final Layout Supervisor, CG Supervisors, Animation Supervisors, Matte Painting Supervisor, and Department TD Supervisor.
Early on the film my job is focused on understanding the needs of the film: planning the film according to those needs, developing strategies to accomplish the plan both artistically and technically, working with our technology development departments to make it possible, and following through with those plans with each department. As the film moves in to production I stay in constant communication to make sure that we follow the plan, or adjust the plan when needed. More and more of my time is spent directing the creative of the work during this time. It’s vital to have worked with the directors closely so that at this point the work that is done correctly to everyone’s satisfaction.
From about a year out from delivery I spend most of my time in “dailies”, where we basically watch the shots in a small digital theater without sound and give feedback to the artists and department heads to guide their work. In the last six months we start delivering a lot of material to DI (digital intermediate) for final color timing and continuity so a fair amount of time in the digital theater is that work. We start delivering reels for film out a few months out from when the film opens in theaters and that takes us to the different outside vendors. We also use outside vendors for commercial work, so a fair amount of time is spent giving them feedback from our studio, or going over to them to review material.
Q: What about for pre-DreamWorks for animation and live action?
Framestore CFC:
Underworld [Sony Pictures] - Senior FX Animator (2003)
Hagen Dasz [commercial campaign] - CG Supervisor (2003)
Harry Potter III [Warner Bros.] - Senior Animator Previs (2003)
Audi “Fish” - CG Supervisor (2002)
Tesco “What’s on Carrie’s mind” - CG Supervisor (2002)
Famous Grouse [campaign] - CG Supervisor (2002-2003)
Kellogg’s “Cow & Bear” - Animation Director (2002)
Nestea “T-Rex” - CG Supervisor (2002)
XBox “Mosquito” - CG Supervisor (2002)
Levi’s “Odyssey” - CG Supervisor (2001-2002)
Cingular Wireless “Good Vibrations” & “Goldfish” - Director (2001)
Richard Burbidge x 4 idents - Director (2001)
Whirlpool “Petals” - CG Supervisor (2001)
Fiat “Volcano” - Senior Animator (2001)
Shell “Fish” - Senior Animator (2000)
BT Cellnet [campaign] - CG Supervisor (2000)
British Gas “Mexican” - Senior Animator (2000)
NatWest “Dennis” - Senior Animator (2000)
I started at Framestore CFC as Senior Animator in the commercial department and after about 6 months I was helping run the department. We did a lot of commercials every year and I got to artistically touch maybe a 1/3 of them. I’ve selected a few of the commercials from that period here and the role I played on them. My job was usually to manage the client contact, strategize how to do the project, sometimes direct the project, and run the team on the project. I stayed pretty hands on as well.
We helped out in previs (pre-visualization) for some of the Harry Potter films, and my department also did the Bond opening title sequences with Daniel Kleinman (director). Before I left I also worked on the “Underworld” film doing werewolf to human transformations using Houdini and Shake, and composited the vampire interior body shot coming to life.
Filmtecknarna:
Boddington’s “Cream of Playboy”, “Horror Hoof” & “Market” - CG Supervisor (1999)
SF Movie Club “Monster”, “Beam” & “Walkers” - CG Supervisor (1999)
Sky Digital “Entertainment”, “Techie”, “Call Center” & “Installer” - CG Supervisor (1999)
I joined my friends at Filmtecknarna in my hometown Stockholm, Sweden, for a series of beer commercials to help make the CG/2D animation combination work. I had done some similar work on my own and got to experiment some more with how to do it successfully. My job was really to create a more streamlined workflow to enable the artists to work more efficiently on more material, and to develop the methods used to create the look of the spots. We started making full CG animated commercials as well. I also directed a Christmas commercial before it was time to try my luck in London.
Q: What got you into the film industry, and specifically visual effects? What’s your educational background? And, how did you make the transition from live action to animation?
A: I’ve always been a film buff. When I came across computer graphics at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst it sparked my interest. I’d been pursuing dancing and choreography as a potential career in my youth, and the combination of moving characters using computer graphics just seemed to fit my personality. I was interested even though at the time the process was similar to doing stop motion but inside the computer, with a bad user interface. I remember seeing “Jurassic Park” in the movie theater and thinking that’s what I wanted to do.
When I returned to Sweden I got the opportunity to learn more by being part of setting up a Media Lab at the Royal Institute of Technology, which is where I got my M.Sc. degree. After a few years I felt the need to explore the creative arena more and started freelancing as an animator in Stockholm. After several bumps in the road, buying my own Silicon Graphics workstation with Softimage 3D software, working in my parents’ house and briefly co-owning an animation studio, I ended up at Filmtecknarna. At the time my focus was on character animation even though you had to pretty much know everything to get the job done. At Filmtecknarna it was really inspiring working with traditional 2D animators, inbetweeners, painters. It was a great time.
I’d met Mike Boudry, one of the founders of CFC while at the Media Lab. So when I was visiting London I hooked up with Mike, and that led to meeting Mike Milne (one of the original 3D artists in London), which led to me getting hired at Framestore. When I came to London I assumed I would be doing mostly fully animated commercials with a focus on character animation. Then the visual effects boom took off and we got tossed into making a lot more visual effects work. My specialty was always in character animation, but you had to do everything to get the work done. We were using new tools and methods for creating better integration with live action plates. Each project was a new venture in figuring out better processes to create more complicated visual effects and more believable integration.
When the opportunity came to go work for DreamWorks Animation it was surprisingly fluent. I knew the European representative from a few years back. She introduced me to a Producer and Visual Effects Supervisor when they were in London. We chatted for five minutes about the production process and the creative process. Next thing I knew I was on a plane to Los Angeles to meet everyone. I think my background in animation was helpful for everyone to understand that I was comfortable with the process. Mostly I think it was a fortunate combination of my experience, skills, and the timing of them needing someone like me, that worked out.
The work was a little different than what I was used to in London, but the practices I used in running projects, managing the creative process, and to deliver on time were all applicable. In many ways I think it helped “Kung Fu Panda” have a more visible strategy for everyone involved.
Q: Could you describe the differences between working in visual effects on a live action production and an animated production?
A: As a visual effects artist, my experience in visual effects for feature films was that you worked with a team of people in a facility with very little visibility or understanding of what the final film would be. You worked with internal supervisors, and changes and feedback came filtered down through them or production management.
In CG feature animation at DreamWorks Animation we do have our directors, producers, and key creatives of the film internal, so everyone on the show has the ability to get it “from the horse’s mouth” so to speak, every day. It’s a very collaborative process. We try to give visibility to everyone involved as much as possible.
The biggest difference though is the story process. Only making two films a year, an animation studio has a very different evolution of the film from a story perspective that starts in early pre-production development and finishes sometimes as late as 6 months out from delivery of the film. It’s a very iterative, intense and introspective process. But it works tremendously well.
Live action has a more direct way of finding the film in the process of shooting it. It then gets found again in editorial. Nowadays a lot of that seems to be happening concurrently even. But there’s a far more immediate interaction with the story than in animation.
I think both processes have pros and cons, and it will be interesting to see how these methods influence each other in the future.
Q: Some animation experts say that character animators have an ‘actor’s mindset’ that allows them to inhabit their characters. Do you think there is a ‘visual effects mindset’ in people who work in the field that makes them more inclined to this aspect of production?
A: I certainly think there’s an approach to the visual challenge at hand that some people seem to simply grasp more naturally than others when it comes to effects work. But I also think that it is a craft people can learn how to become very adept at performing. I think like most things, some people only see the final complete picture, where as others can see the construction of it, how it was put together, imagine it done differently. That natural ability in combination with the technical skills of understanding the underpinning of computer graphics techniques makes some people truly exceptional in the field.
Q: Digital effects are, in both live action and animation a necessary part of modern moviemaking, but in comparison to character animation have a tendency to be overlooked. From talking to animation fans, I have a sense that a lot of even the very dedicated and knowledgeable don’t really know what a visual effects supervisor does. Could you explain what this role within the production consists of, what your duties are, and how you supervise or head up the effects team?
A: It’s true that the Visual Effects Supervisor in Animation doesn’t fit into the traditional approach to 2D animation, and therefore it doesn’t have the history that many of the other roles have. Also, it’s a little different depending on which studio you are working for. It’s actually surprisingly similar to live action in many ways.
The job in its clearest form is basically that you are responsible for delivering the computer graphics images that the directors and producers expect. That means that you are working closely with them to plan the film that they want to make and it is the Visual Effects Supervisor’s job to figure out how to put tools, processes, techniques, resources, and people in place to make that possible. It also means following through on those plans to achieve the creative aspiration of the film in all departments. Since the job on a feature animated film is so vast, you work very closely with the other key creatives (experts in their specific area) to make the film. At DreamWorks Animation these are the Production Designer, Head of Story, Editor, Head of Character Animation, and Head of Layout. You have a number of departments that report to you directly through their supervisors - Modeling, Surfacing, Effects, Character Effects, Final Layout, Lighting, Department Technical Directors and Paint Fix. On top of that you are also responsible for working with outside departments to make sure that technology resources and development are meeting the needs of your show.
Q: On a typical DreamWorks Animation production, is the effects supervisor expected to do some of the effects shots himself/herself, as a character animation supervisor would? And if so, could you tell us some of your shots in Kung Fu Panda?
A: So here’s the confusion. I have a Head of Effects who is the department supervisor for effects working for me. He or she may be expected to be hands on at times. Usually this is early on in pre-production when we are either doing look development or technical development. It depends on their skill set and how many artists are on the show. We quickly get to a place where the supervisors really focus on making sure their artists are successful. That’s the importance of the job and is always a struggle for artists doing their first stint as a supervisor.
My job as the Visual Effects Supervisor with the Effects Department is to plan with the Head of Effects how we will accomplish the film: setting clear expectations about the stylization of look and motion, figuring out how we will accomplish tent pole effects in the film, and what new techniques we will develop, how we will manage the creative process and approvals, scheduling, and budgeting. We constantly look back at the expectations to make sure that we are following through on them, or revise them if things have changed. After that it’s all about the artists doing the effects work. Mostly I see them in effects dailies every couple of days when they show their work, which I do together with the Production Designer. Sometimes I do rounds at artist’s desks to work with them a little less formally to discuss options and solutions.
I am always inspired by what artists bring to their work, and often the adaptation I want to make while we are making the film comes from new opportunities that come out of the excellent work that is achieved, and things I’d like the film to take advantage of more. I then go back to the directors and pitch that. On the directors and producer’s side that means they feel that there are opportunities to improve on the story they are telling during the evolution of the film, and that’s the kind of environment we crave when we make our films at DreamWorks Animation. On “Kung Fu Panda” I believe that’s how we ended up creating the rope bridge sequence quite late in production. It was truly an inspiring collaboration between everyone involved.
As far as doing hands on work, as a Visual Effects Supervisor, it may not be practical as your job is to make the 250 artists on the show successful doing their job. That’s the key responsibility.
Sometimes however, it’s necessary to get involved. It really depends on the situation. On “Kung Fu Panda” there were a few things that I took on and did in my “spare time” late in production. The production, thanks to my phenomenal department heads, was running smoothly so it was possible. I basically ran a small previs department in my office using Adobe After Effects. We had a series of conceptually difficult transitions between sequences and shots on the film that we hadn’t properly worked out. The directors had strong feelings about them, but weren’t able to articulate exactly what they wanted. To facilitate the process I started doing some compositing work to illustrate what it could be, to help nail down looks and timings, and allow lighting to create the final composites with few iterations. Since we had been working on the film together for years and I worked closely with the Production Designer, we were able to get together for 15 minutes once in a while in my office and figure out how to make these shots work.
The process was so successful that when we struggled with a flashback scene we used the same process to hammer it out, and we actually delivered the final frames that way. In the last moments of production I even did some paint fix work using this type of “creative compositing”.
Q: You were on Kung Fu Panda for about 4 years, longer than most of the other animators, as well as the directors! Over that period of time, how did the movie change from the original ‘Panda Project’ to the final film we see today?
A: I was on “Kung Fu Panda” for 4 years and 9 months. It was not a conscious decision, but more a result of many factors. When I first came on we were planning our schedule around a potential 2006 release, but other films were also in play at the time, so by the time all the scheduling for the films had crystallized we were a 2008 release. Which really worked in our favor.
The high concept part of the film never changed. It was always called “Kung Fu Panda”. What was really inspiring to be part of was the change with John, Mark and Melissa when we decided to make a film that honored the kung fu film genre and focused the comedy on the contrast of a panda voiced by Jack Black in a highly strict and structured Asian kung fu culture. It took us all a while to get that right, but from the start of that process we were all inspired by that concept. About the same time is when we defined the look of the film, and that really didn’t change. It simply evolved naturally through the filmmaking process into what you see on screen today.
Q: What scene or sequence are you most proud of on Kung Fu Panda?
A: A very difficult question to answer. Which one of your children do you love the most? I have many favorites for different reasons. I love the “Tai Lung Escapes” sequence, because that’s where we figured out the fantastical aspect of the film. The sequence was in development and production for a year and a half, and we continuously allowed ourselves to keep pushing it to be all that it could be.
One of my favorite scenes is the “Rope Bridge Fight” because we were able to take everything we’d learned and the relationship and trust that we’d developed on the show, and late in production create a sequence that was next to impossible to do within the resources and schedule we had. I see everyone’s strengths as artists and collaborators in that sequence, from the boards all the way to the finished frames on screen.
It’s difficult not to mention the “Chopstick Fight” since that was the first sequence that was approved through production. It really set the tone for the film in many ways.
From an emotional and acting perspective I love “Shifu Defends the Palace”. Not only is there some awesome kung fu in the sequence, with Tai Lung’s fist catching fire, which was a really cool and unique concept that worked well, but the exchange between Shifu and Tai Lung, both at the beginning of the scene and at the end carry so much of the emotional backbone of our story - which heart really lives within Shifu, his inner turmoil, and his relationship with Tai Lung and Oogway. I love the acting of Shifu at the end of the scene, which was animated by Dan Wagner, our head of character animation. What brilliance.
Q: Since Kung Fu Panda had a very strong Chinese design motif as the visual center of the film, were any attempts made to give the effects themselves a ‘Chinese’ feel or look?
A: We did have some stylization of the effects in the film. We discussed this at length as we started making the film. There was a constant balance between stylizing effects and the amount of effects we could accomplish. We ended up in a place where we stylized the effects to live in the same world with the characters and the environment, but without taking the audience out of the film by making the technique pull the attention of the eye. A lot of the effects work became about supporting the design sensibility of the film and the fantastical aspect of the movement and shapes we wanted to see. The fire fists are a perfect example of this. We used fluid simulations for fire in the film to create the distinct shapes and behavior. In the fire fists we worked within that choice and pushed it to the fantastical aspect of drawing trails of the motion curves using the fire.
Q: Besides your work on Kung Fu Panda, what other experiences at DreamWorks Animation stand out most strongly for you?
A: “Kung Fu Panda” is of course the strongest as I was on the film from the very start. DreamWorks Animation is a very collaborative environment. Many of us also work in global capacities to make sure that we evolve our filmmaking process and tools to allow future films even more possibilities. The camaraderie and respect for each other across the many projects that we have in production at the same time is very inspiring for us as artists and as members of the DreamWorks family. It’s a truly unique environment that I cherish every day.
Q: Perhaps I’m inquiring into ‘state secrets,’ but can you give us any details about your next project (without having to kill anyone, of course)?
A: I am not allowed to talk about the specifics of the project. I am in early development on a film with Chris Sanders and Kirk DeMicco, that Kristine Belson and Jane Hartwell are producing. I jumped at the chance to work with this group of people who I love and trust. All I can say is that I am tremendously inspired by what we are doing creatively. I have the opportunity to pursue my personal passion in making a next generation animated feature film. I am very excited to share that with everyone when the film comes to the screen a few years from now. Stay tuned.
Q: Lastly, in your opinion, what at DreamWorks Animation sets it apart from other companies?
A: I haven’t worked at another animation studio here in the US, so it’s difficult for me to say what’s different. I suppose what I can reflect on is my thinking when I decided to come and work here, and as well, my thinking when I decided to stay and make my next film here.
The most inspiring aspect as an artist is to work on a project that inspires you, in an environment where you feel supported and nurtured to try to do something unique that excels what we do. When I look at the projects we have in production, when I talk to the people who are working on defining those projects, who help create and define the culture of our environment, it always strikes me how generous they are with their time, their insight, and their passion for what they do.
Making good films is a lot of hard work. Great films are double that in amount of effort. To work with people who feel passionate about the film that they are making, and looking at such a diverse, yet great, slate of films in production is truly inspiring for someone like me, who at heart is a film buff. Who was fortunate enough to take a passion, a hobby, and be able to make it into a career. I think DreamWorks Animation is filled with a lot of us who feel that way, and we all feel very connected and jointly pursue with our passion how to make every film we make great. That artist’s camaraderie is what I think is unique.
CONCLUSION: Thank you very much for taking part in this interview.
RESPONSE: My pleasure. I am honored that you want to hear my opinions.